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	<title>Comments on: My Catalog Conundrum</title>
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	<description>the neverending reference interview of life</description>
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		<title>By: Jessica</title>
		<link>http://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4608</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jessica]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 19:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4608</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Like LTWorth, I&#039;ll add an ISBN to an existing MARC record rather than create a whole new record, especially when we get the trade paper edition of hardcovers. Audiobooks with the same number of discs and the same narrator go on the same record. All the large print versions of a particular titles are on the same records, even if pagination is different and one edition was published ten years after the original.

Most of the people in our TS department also have desk duty, so we understand that accessability doesn&#039;t always mesh with cataloging standards. In the past, I have found that catalogers who are behind the scenes all the time can be more concerned with properly following cataloging rules than considering how easy (or difficult) it will be for someone to find what he or she is looking for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like LTWorth, I&#8217;ll add an ISBN to an existing MARC record rather than create a whole new record, especially when we get the trade paper edition of hardcovers. Audiobooks with the same number of discs and the same narrator go on the same record. All the large print versions of a particular titles are on the same records, even if pagination is different and one edition was published ten years after the original.</p>
<p>Most of the people in our TS department also have desk duty, so we understand that accessability doesn&#8217;t always mesh with cataloging standards. In the past, I have found that catalogers who are behind the scenes all the time can be more concerned with properly following cataloging rules than considering how easy (or difficult) it will be for someone to find what he or she is looking for.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4591</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 May 2011 05:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good to skim! If you blog about it, please link it so I can check it out on the pingback. I&#039;d be interested to see what is salvageable from these comments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good to skim! If you blog about it, please link it so I can check it out on the pingback. I&#8217;d be interested to see what is salvageable from these comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate</title>
		<link>http://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4584</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 May 2011 20:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4584</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m an accidental cataloger who is looking for the same sort of functionality. It annoys me to no end that we have three different records and thus three different displays for some of our titles. I understand the standards; I just don&#039;t agree with them, especially in the era of the social Web. 

I&#039;m skimming off some of the ideas mentioned here to figure out what would work best for our students (high school).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m an accidental cataloger who is looking for the same sort of functionality. It annoys me to no end that we have three different records and thus three different displays for some of our titles. I understand the standards; I just don&#8217;t agree with them, especially in the era of the social Web. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m skimming off some of the ideas mentioned here to figure out what would work best for our students (high school).</p>
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		<title>By: Jenny V</title>
		<link>http://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4538</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jenny V]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 May 2011 23:42:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see that a few folks have mentioned RDA/FRBR already, so I don&#039;t need to rehash that.

After skimming through the comments, though, it seems like it might be helpful to point out some catalogers who are totally on board with simple, patron-oriented records. Christine Schwartz blogged about this two days ago (http://www.catalogingfutures.com/catalogingfutures/2011/05/cataloging-at-its-core-the-minimum-viable-record.html), and Saskia at All Things Cataloged wrote about it a month ago (http://allthingscataloged.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/simplification-as-an-opportunity/), and each of them refer to other catalogers who are talking about the same issue.

I&#039;m a front-of-the-library sort of person at heart, but I was just hired to a tech services position, so I&#039;ve been trying to find ways to see how catalogers and public services folks can work together to make the library a better place for patrons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see that a few folks have mentioned RDA/FRBR already, so I don&#8217;t need to rehash that.</p>
<p>After skimming through the comments, though, it seems like it might be helpful to point out some catalogers who are totally on board with simple, patron-oriented records. Christine Schwartz blogged about this two days ago (<a href="http://www.catalogingfutures.com/catalogingfutures/2011/05/cataloging-at-its-core-the-minimum-viable-record.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.catalogingfutures.com/catalogingfutures/2011/05/cataloging-at-its-core-the-minimum-viable-record.html</a>), and Saskia at All Things Cataloged wrote about it a month ago (<a href="http://allthingscataloged.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/simplification-as-an-opportunity/" rel="nofollow">http://allthingscataloged.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/simplification-as-an-opportunity/</a>), and each of them refer to other catalogers who are talking about the same issue.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a front-of-the-library sort of person at heart, but I was just hired to a tech services position, so I&#8217;ve been trying to find ways to see how catalogers and public services folks can work together to make the library a better place for patrons.</p>
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		<title>By: Colleen Smith</title>
		<link>http://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4536</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Colleen Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 May 2011 15:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4536</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You say the patrons don&#039;t care that one was book was published later than the other, but what if they do?  What if the later published one had an extra epilogue or an extended preface and you gave them the one without it becase they were both cataloged on the same record?  I agree, this might be a unlikely case.  But there are instances where it would matter if all &quot;issuances&quot; were simply cataloged together.  That said, I agree, the display you showed is not helpful to patrons.  I mostly blame the ILS vendors for that.  Our ILS software should be able to take our wonderfully detailed records and present them in a way that is useful and helpful to patrons.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You say the patrons don&#8217;t care that one was book was published later than the other, but what if they do?  What if the later published one had an extra epilogue or an extended preface and you gave them the one without it becase they were both cataloged on the same record?  I agree, this might be a unlikely case.  But there are instances where it would matter if all &#8220;issuances&#8221; were simply cataloged together.  That said, I agree, the display you showed is not helpful to patrons.  I mostly blame the ILS vendors for that.  Our ILS software should be able to take our wonderfully detailed records and present them in a way that is useful and helpful to patrons.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4530</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 May 2011 03:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4530</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems to be that in an age of accessibility it is a matter of balancing an accurate item description against people being able to find it as they would expect to (a la search engines). That fancy explanation is fine for other librarians, but a detriment to regular folks who just want to find the damn movie.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to be that in an age of accessibility it is a matter of balancing an accurate item description against people being able to find it as they would expect to (a la search engines). That fancy explanation is fine for other librarians, but a detriment to regular folks who just want to find the damn movie.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4529</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 May 2011 03:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I guess what the next step would be is for a catalog that acts like Amazon on the front side and a regular catalog on the back end. I guess I&#039;m still unclear as to why it can&#039;t be both ways.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess what the next step would be is for a catalog that acts like Amazon on the front side and a regular catalog on the back end. I guess I&#8217;m still unclear as to why it can&#8217;t be both ways.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross Riker</title>
		<link>http://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4525</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ross Riker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2011 18:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4525</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[At least two issues.  One, for the ILS to be able to identify things along these lines the data must be organized in a manner that will allow it to do so.  In other words, if the data is not there or is not organized in a manner that the software can easily use, then it will be difficult to collocate the titles.  It may be a little harsh, but there is an old saying GIGO -- garbage in, garbage out.  While it may be easy for a librarian (person) to see that the two titles are effectively the same, the ILS (computer / software) clearly has a much more difficult time.  Uniform titles are one way to help, but they are probably not very common for these types of titles.  FRBR / RDA will help, but I am not sure how backward translatable it will be (in other words, I am not sure how easy it will be to FRBRize old cataloging records).  You might want to take a look at least this page to see some of the issues OCLC has run into -- http://www.oclc.org/research/activities/past/orprojects/frbralgorithm/default.htm . 

Second, as someone else pointed out, some of this is up to the vendor.  Clearly, Amazon has their data (and software) organized to be able to do this, but I seriously doubt they are using AACR2 / MARC.  So, even if a library has the data organized in a manner that can help you with this issue (a *huge* if, IMO), the vendor must then be able to offer a software solution.

Clearly this was a patron initiated hold.  What we do in similar situations when a staff initiates the hold, is to put holds on several of the items.  Then when the patron receives the item, they can have us cancel the remaining holds.  Now that the patron is aware of the issue, they could do the same thing in the future or they could ask.  Not ideal, but you try to do the best that you can with what you have while striving for those future improvements.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least two issues.  One, for the ILS to be able to identify things along these lines the data must be organized in a manner that will allow it to do so.  In other words, if the data is not there or is not organized in a manner that the software can easily use, then it will be difficult to collocate the titles.  It may be a little harsh, but there is an old saying GIGO &#8212; garbage in, garbage out.  While it may be easy for a librarian (person) to see that the two titles are effectively the same, the ILS (computer / software) clearly has a much more difficult time.  Uniform titles are one way to help, but they are probably not very common for these types of titles.  FRBR / RDA will help, but I am not sure how backward translatable it will be (in other words, I am not sure how easy it will be to FRBRize old cataloging records).  You might want to take a look at least this page to see some of the issues OCLC has run into &#8212; <a href="http://www.oclc.org/research/activities/past/orprojects/frbralgorithm/default.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.oclc.org/research/activities/past/orprojects/frbralgorithm/default.htm</a> . </p>
<p>Second, as someone else pointed out, some of this is up to the vendor.  Clearly, Amazon has their data (and software) organized to be able to do this, but I seriously doubt they are using AACR2 / MARC.  So, even if a library has the data organized in a manner that can help you with this issue (a *huge* if, IMO), the vendor must then be able to offer a software solution.</p>
<p>Clearly this was a patron initiated hold.  What we do in similar situations when a staff initiates the hold, is to put holds on several of the items.  Then when the patron receives the item, they can have us cancel the remaining holds.  Now that the patron is aware of the issue, they could do the same thing in the future or they could ask.  Not ideal, but you try to do the best that you can with what you have while striving for those future improvements.</p>
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		<title>By: Liz B</title>
		<link>http://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4524</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liz B]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2011 17:22:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes! I understand why we need to know; and sometimes it does matter which edition.

But why not have it that it doesn&#039;t matter to the customer, unless they want it to matter?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes! I understand why we need to know; and sometimes it does matter which edition.</p>
<p>But why not have it that it doesn&#8217;t matter to the customer, unless they want it to matter?</p>
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		<title>By: Lisa H</title>
		<link>http://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4520</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lisa H]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 May 2011 15:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://agnosticmaybe.wordpress.com/2011/05/11/my-catalog-conundrum/#comment-4520</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had to respond to this one -- it keeps surprising me how antagonistic our cataloging, and therefore our cataloguers can be. Just last week, I had this interaction with a cataloging staff member about access to particular material:

My question: A user was looking for the film &quot;Society of the Spectacle.&quot; [This is a French movie that does have a uniform translated title.] We do have this book in two different forms in English, thus with an English title to access it. However, our version of that item as a movie (the French movie) does not have the English title attached to it. 

Can you fix it so a search for &quot;Society of the Spectacle&quot; brings up the movie as well as the books?

This was the response:

&quot;The reason for which you did not find the movie when searching by &quot;Society of the spectacle&quot; is because the movie is in French and produced in France, respectively its original language and country--per cataloging rules, it does not require an added title entry in English in the bibliographic record.&quot;

Ok, so it doesn&#039;t require it, but I&#039;m asking if we can add it.

&quot;If you searched by the uniform title &quot;Société du spectacle&quot; you could have displayed everything we have, regardless of format and language, i.e., three books and one video.&quot;

But that&#039;s not how the user searched for it. We cannot define what the user searches for, right? The goal is to bring things out of the catalog that are appropriate for the search. What if the user didn&#039;t even know that it was a French movie?

&quot;The movie in question is part of the larger DVD set &quot;Oeuvres cinématographiques completes&quot; and goes on disc no. 2 along with another 22 min. material titled &quot;Réfutation de tous les jugements, tant élogieux qu&#039;hostiles...,&quot; which means that if I add the title &quot;Society of the spectacle&quot; in this record I need to add the English versions (if any) of all the other French titles included on the DVD set. Fortunately, there is a 2003 book &quot;Complete cinematic works,&quot; an English version of &quot;Oeuvres cinématographiques completes&quot; by Guy Debord published in California and that helps. Per your request, I locally enhanced the record to allow better discovery of these materials by our patrons. You may now search by either English or French versions of the title and get the same results.&quot;

Ok. So the answer was yes, I can add the English version of the title. The cataloguing rules really are so particular and don&#039;t seem to actually relate to accessibility for the user, but are more about uniqueness of the item!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had to respond to this one &#8212; it keeps surprising me how antagonistic our cataloging, and therefore our cataloguers can be. Just last week, I had this interaction with a cataloging staff member about access to particular material:</p>
<p>My question: A user was looking for the film &#8220;Society of the Spectacle.&#8221; [This is a French movie that does have a uniform translated title.] We do have this book in two different forms in English, thus with an English title to access it. However, our version of that item as a movie (the French movie) does not have the English title attached to it. </p>
<p>Can you fix it so a search for &#8220;Society of the Spectacle&#8221; brings up the movie as well as the books?</p>
<p>This was the response:</p>
<p>&#8220;The reason for which you did not find the movie when searching by &#8220;Society of the spectacle&#8221; is because the movie is in French and produced in France, respectively its original language and country&#8211;per cataloging rules, it does not require an added title entry in English in the bibliographic record.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ok, so it doesn&#8217;t require it, but I&#8217;m asking if we can add it.</p>
<p>&#8220;If you searched by the uniform title &#8220;Société du spectacle&#8221; you could have displayed everything we have, regardless of format and language, i.e., three books and one video.&#8221;</p>
<p>But that&#8217;s not how the user searched for it. We cannot define what the user searches for, right? The goal is to bring things out of the catalog that are appropriate for the search. What if the user didn&#8217;t even know that it was a French movie?</p>
<p>&#8220;The movie in question is part of the larger DVD set &#8220;Oeuvres cinématographiques completes&#8221; and goes on disc no. 2 along with another 22 min. material titled &#8220;Réfutation de tous les jugements, tant élogieux qu&#8217;hostiles&#8230;,&#8221; which means that if I add the title &#8220;Society of the spectacle&#8221; in this record I need to add the English versions (if any) of all the other French titles included on the DVD set. Fortunately, there is a 2003 book &#8220;Complete cinematic works,&#8221; an English version of &#8220;Oeuvres cinématographiques completes&#8221; by Guy Debord published in California and that helps. Per your request, I locally enhanced the record to allow better discovery of these materials by our patrons. You may now search by either English or French versions of the title and get the same results.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ok. So the answer was yes, I can add the English version of the title. The cataloguing rules really are so particular and don&#8217;t seem to actually relate to accessibility for the user, but are more about uniqueness of the item!</p>
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